I would like to personally welcome Battery Mooch to TasteYourJuice.com.
“Mooch” is well known in the industry as the “battery guy” and is quite popular on the ECF. I’ve worked with Mooch several times in the background and he’s always been quite helpful and knowledgeable in answering my questions.
Although I have some experience with battery testing, Mooch has all the experience I lack so I though it a good fit to offer him his own page here on TasteYourJuice.com.
If you look to the left, you’ll see the new Battery Mooch page under Information/Resources. His first article can be found there as well.
WELCOME MY FRIEND!
Who is Battery Mooch?
My name is John Muchow, some of you may know me as Mooch on ECF and FB and Mooch315
on ECR. I have been vaping since April, 2015 and haven’t smoked once since I
started!I was born and raised in New York City and still live there now. Since 1992 I have
been designing and building electronic devices for a large number of clients. My
first products were camera remote-control systems for sports photographers. As these
systems, and other devices, transitioned from wired to wireless the performance of
the batteries they used was very important as there was no way to replace them
during use. This led to me doing more and more battery testing and developing the
electronics to charge, test, and protect them.As battery technology advanced, from NiCd to NiMH to Li-Ion and now
ultracapacitor/Li-Ion hybrids, the devices I built and the battery testing I did
advanced along with them. I started specializing in power management electronics;
battery chargers, energy harvesters (for charging from heat, light, or
vibration/movement), power supplies, battery analyzers, electronic loads for battery
discharging, and battery management/protection systems. This is the work I still do
today.My clients have included the US Army, National Geographic, Sports Illustrated,
Eastman Kodak Company, and hundreds of other companies from large to small. Part of
the work I’ve done for a lot of my clients has been battery testing. Sometimes they
want to recommend a good battery to their customers. Other times they’re batteries I
have chosen to combine with my electronics to form a complete, protected power
source for them to incorporate into their products.Depending on my client’s requirements this testing can take up to several weeks to
complete. I use a subset of these tests when evaluating the batteries we use when
vaping. This includes continuous-current tests to establish the battery’s true (and
safe) ratings. They also help to determine if there’s any risk of venting if one of
our mods autofires or a mechanical mod’s button is accidentally pressed. The
pulse-current tests measure the degree of voltage sag we would see when vaping at
different current levels. Both types of tests are done the same way for every set of
batteries I test.This consistency in the testing allows for direct comparison of the performance of
different batteries even if the pulse discharging I do doesn’t match the way you
vape.Safety is my number one priority. While I often test at discharge current levels
that can result in unsafe battery temperatures, this is the only way to figure out
what a battery’s true and safe ratings are. No battery is totally safe but we can
certainly avoid taking unnecessary risks.My blog at ECF has the results of all my testing and a few articles on batteries,
battery safety, etc.:https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mooch.256958/
I have also listed the equipment I use and the steps I follow when testing. This
allows anyone to replicate my tests if they want to:https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/my-cell-testing-equipment-and-setup.7431/
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/whats-done-for-each-cell-test.7433/
My battery test results offer you a resource you can use when choosing a battery
that will not only be safer for the way you vape but will also give you great
performance.I’m looking forward to contributing to TasteYourJuice.com and I want to thank
PBusardo for the opportunity to help spread the word on exaggerated battery ratings
and battery safety!Mooch
Latest Battery Updates
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: LiPo 3S 1800mAh Performance/Temperature Shootout and Testing Conclusions
Testing of the 1800mAh LiPo’s is done and I probably won’t be adding any others to the list for at least a couple of months. I’ll be catching up on some round cell testing and then the 2250mAh LiPo’s hopefully some time in April-May.
Here is the graph directly comparing the performance, at 20A continuous, of all the 1800mAh LiPo packs I tested. I’ve also included a table of the maximum temperatures measured during a 20A continuous discharge.
The Turnigy Graphene 65C is the best performer with the Turnigy Nano-Tech 65C-130C close behind. The MaxAmps 100C is clearly the worst performer.
The table of temperatures echoes what is seen in the graphs, with the the Turnigy Graphene 65C and Turnigy Nano-Tech 65C-130C having the lowest operating temperatures and the MaxAmps 100C having the highest temperature.
The 22°C spread between the hottest and coolest running packs at 20A continuous is huge and reflects the large differences in internal resistances between some of these packs.
It is the internal resistance of the cells that determines both the voltage sag and the amount of heat produced during a discharge. The cells with the lowest internal resistance will produce the least heat and be the best performers, running at the highest voltage.
As seen in the discharge graph and the temperatures table, a couple of the other packs still performed well. If their prices are lower than the top performers that could make them packs you should consider if money is tight.
Be aware of the sizes of each of these packs though! The Turnigy Graphene is larger than all the other packs. The MaxAmps is the smallest.
1800mAh LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
https://imgur.com/a/NmMvT
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: MaxAmps 100C 1850mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…tiny but only a 6C/17C pack
Bottom Line: I realize that this pack is widely used and loved by many vapers. These test results are not an indictment of anyone or anyone’s decision to use this pack. Its performance is what it is, no matter who uses it or how it’s used.
Hopefully though it’s no surprise that a pack that is both smaller and having a higher capacity rating than others in its class also has a higher internal resistance, adversely affecting its performance. It’s no different than the round cells we use. Higher capacity means a lower current rating. We can’t have the highest capacity and the highest current rating in the same cell….or lipo pack.
This MaxAmps is stunningly, absurdly overrated. It has the highest internal resistance I’ve tested in an 1800mAh-class pack and is by far the worst performer. It reached the maximum internal temperature of 60°C at only 10A continuous and 30A pulsed. A single 30A continuous discharge severely damaged the pack.
Its internal resistance is more than double the average for the other packs, resulting in truly huge voltage sag. Discharging this pack at its 185A, “True 100C”, current rating would result in about 7.7V of voltage sag, instantly bringing the pack voltage down to about 4.9V. This makes this pack’s 185A rating utterly useless for even the shortest of pulses.
The pack is available with 12AWG and 16AWG wiring. The test results were almost identical for both wire sizes, showing that the cell resistance is much, much higher than any changes in wire resistance.
MaxAmps sells this pack with 16AWG wiring as the “Standard” configuration and 12AWG wiring as an upgrade. This is astounding to me. This pack’s 185A rating is far above the 117A “fusing current” rating for 16AWG wire, the current level at which the wire melts after several seconds.
Yes, melts.
Even just a short pulse applied at this pack’s “True 100A” rating could raise the 16AWG wiring’s temperature to several hundred degrees.
The two packs I tested here were purchased directly from MaxAmps and are not “bad packs”. I also did some preliminary testing of a third pack a couple months ago and it had an internal resistance of about 45mOhms, matching the terrible performance of these two.
Having said all this though the pack’s performance is still better than any 18650’s in a sled (where the internal resistance totals at least 75mOhms) at 30A or less. Combine this with the MaxAmps’s small size and you still have a pack that can be used very successfully in lots of vaping setups. It’s an especially good match with regulator boards in the 200W-250W range, combining small size and adequate power handling. If you have the extra room though there are better performing packs available for higher power/current LiPo setups.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
– Capacity = 1800mAh
– Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 10A (6C)
– Average Pack IR = 41.2mOhms
– Average Cell IR = 12.7mOhms
– Dimensions/Weight = 87 x 36 x 21mm/16AWG wiring =124gms, 12AWG wiring=128gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/maxamps-100c-1850mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-tiny-but-only-a-6c-17c-pack.795569/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Thunder Power Rampage 70C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only 11C/31C, but an ok performer
Bottom Line: This Thunder Power Rampage is overrated (for its factory rating) but it is an ok performing pack.
Its internal resistance is a bit higher than the average of the other packs I have tested, resulting in a bit of extra voltage sag, but the consistency between the cells in the two packs was the best of the packs I tested. Discharging this pack at its 126A (70C) current rating would quickly bring the voltage down to about 9V. This pack’s 126A (70C) rating can’t even be called a pulse rating.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 20A (11C)
Average Pack IR = 24.0mOhms
Average Cell IR = 6.6mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 103 x 33 x 25mm/ 156gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/thunder-power-rampage-70c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-11c-31c-but-ok-performe.795357/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Thunder Power Elite 55C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only a poor performing 11C/19C pack
Bottom Line: This Thunder Power Elite is an overrated and poor performing pack for its factory rating.
Its internal resistance is at least 30% higher than the average of the other packs I have tested, resulting in extra voltage sag. Discharging this pack at its 99A (55C) current rating would quickly bring the voltage down under 10V.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 20A (11C)
Average Pack IR = 26.1mOhms
Average Cell IR = 7.4mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 100 x 32 x 27mm/ 158gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/thunder-power-elite-55c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-a-poor-performing-11c-19c-pack.795183/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Turnigy A-SPEC 65C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only a poor performing 11C/19C pack
Bottom Line: This Turnigy A-SPEC is an overrated and poor performing pack for its factory rating.
Its internal resistance is about double the average of the other packs I have tested, resulting in extra voltage sag. Discharging this pack at its 117A (65C) current rating would quickly bring the voltage down to about 8V
It can’t even be considered a 65C pulse-rated pack as the first pulse would be near 8V, below the typical 9.0V cutoff for a 3S LiPo pack.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 20A (11C)
Average Pack IR = 36.1mOhms
Average Cell IR = 10.1mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 103 x 31 x 25mm/ 160gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/turnigy-a-spec-65c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-a-poor-performing-11c-19c-pack.795063/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Turnigy Nano-Tech 65C-130C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…preposterously overrated but a decent performer
Bottom Line: This Turnigy Nano-Tech is a decent performing pack but is absurdly overrated.
Discharging this pack at its 117A (65C) continuous current rating would quickly bring the voltage down to about 9V and quickly heat it up past Turnigy’s max temperature rating, causing the pack to permanently puff and be damaged. It can’t even be considered a 65C pulse-rated pack. Its 130C (234A) “pulse” rating is ridiculous. The fusing current rating for 12AWG wire, where it melts in a few seconds, is 217A. Pulsing this pack at its 234A rating can easily heat the wiring and connections up to several hundred degrees. Long pulses would melt the copper wiring.
Any decent pack can be pulsed for very, very short time periods at these crazy high current levels but that doesn’t make those discharge current levels a rating. It’s just a capability of the pack. Without knowing the length of the pulse, how often you can do it (its duty cycle), and the criteria used to set the rating (voltage? temperature? run time? cycle life?) these numbers are useless. They can’t be used to compare any pack against any other.
It’s shame that Turnigy felt the need to exaggerate the rating of this pack so badly as it’s a decent performing pack.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 35A (19C)
Average Pack IR = 16.5mOhms
Average Cell IR = 3.8mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 104 x 34 x 25mm/ 176gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/turnigy-nano-tech-65c-130c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-preposterously-overrated.794989/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Turnigy Nano-Tech 25C-50C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only an ok 11C/28C pack
Bottom Line: This Turnigy Nano-Tech is only an ok performing pack and is overrated.
Discharging this Turnigy Nano-Tech at its 45A (25C) continuous current rating would quickly bring the pack voltage down to about 10.5V and quickly heat it up past Turnigy’s max temperature rating, causing the pack to puff. This cannot even be considered a 50C (90A) pulse-rated pack unless the pulses are short and far between and you don’t mind the huge voltage sag at 90A.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 20A (11C)
Average Pack IR = 18.75mOhms
Average Cell IR = 4.5mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 105 x 34 x 21mm/ 147gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/turnigy-nano-tech-25c-50c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-an-ok-11c-28c-pack.794799/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Turnigy Graphene 65C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only a 28C/39C pack, but a great performing one
Bottom Line: This Turnigy Graphene is a great performing, low internal resistance pack but it is overrated.
Vaping at its 117A (65C) rating, which I am presuming is a useless “pulse” rating and not a continuous current rating, would quickly bring the pack voltage down to about 10V and quickly heat the pack up past Turnigy’s max temperature rating unless vaping slowly. This cannot even be considered a 65C (117A) pulse-rated pack unless the pulses are short and far between and you don’t mind the huge voltage sag at 117A.
This is a great performing pack though, easily beating out packs with higher internal resistances which causes greater voltage sag and higher temperatures.
But, as is always the case, there are tradeoffs for this better performance. This Turnigy Graphene pack is thicker than many other poorer performing packs, 27mm versus about 21mm. It is also heavier, 188gms versus the 145-160gms of other packs. But if this pack’s larger size and greater weight isn’t a problem then it’s a great choice for higher current applications.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 50A (28C)
Average Pack IR = 13.65mOhms
Average Cell IR = 3.1mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 106 x 35 x 27mm / 188gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/turnigy-graphene-65c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-a-28c-39c-pack-but-a-great-one.794599/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Zippy 40C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only a 17C/28C pack, but an ok one
Bottom Line: This Zippy is a ok performing pack but it is overrated.
Vaping at its 72A (40C) rating, which I am presuming is a useless “pulse” rating and not a continuous current rating, would quickly bring the pack voltage down to about 10V and quickly heat the pack up past the Zippy’s max temperature rating unless vaping slowly. This cannot even be considered a 40C (72A) pulse-rated pack unless the pulses are short and far between and you don’t mind the huge voltage sag at 72A.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 30A (17C)
Average Pack IR = 18.6 mOhms
Average Cell IR = 4.8 mOhms
Dimensions/Weight = 107 x 36 x 21mm / 149gms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/zippy-40c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-a-17c-28c-pack-but-an-ok-one.794425/
LiPo ratings table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/lipo-pack-safety-grades-and-performance-table.7807/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Venom FPV Drone 50C 1800mAh 3S LiPo Pack Bench Test Results…only a 17C/28C pack, but a decent one
Bottom Line: This Venom is a decent performing pack but it is overrated.
Vaping at its 90A (50C) rating, which I am presuming is a useless “pulse” rating and not a continuous current rating, would quickly bring the pack voltage down to about 10V and quickly heat the pack up past Venom’s max temperature rating unless vaping quite slowly. This cannot even be considered a 50C (90A) pulse-rated pack unless the pulses are short and far between and you don’t mind the huge voltage sag at 90A.
CAUTION: LiPo’s use the most volatile of the Li-Ion battery chemistries and can cause extreme injury if abused. Never use a LiPo unless the cells, wraps, wiring, and connector are in perfect condition. Never exceed the CDR of the LiPo unless you understand and accept the risks involved. You are responsible for your own safety, be careful!
My Ratings:
Capacity = 1800mAh
Continuous Discharge Rating (CDR) = 30A (17C)
Average Pack IR = 16.8 mOhms
Average Cell IR = 4.2 mOhms
IR = Internal Resistance
mOhms = milliohms
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/venom-fpv-drone-50c-1800mah-3s-lipo-pack-bench-test-results-only-a-17c-28c-pack-but-a-decent-one.794273/
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
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