I would like to personally welcome Battery Mooch to TasteYourJuice.com.
“Mooch” is well known in the industry as the “battery guy” and is quite popular on the ECF. I’ve worked with Mooch several times in the background and he’s always been quite helpful and knowledgeable in answering my questions.
Although I have some experience with battery testing, Mooch has all the experience I lack so I though it a good fit to offer him his own page here on TasteYourJuice.com.
If you look to the left, you’ll see the new Battery Mooch page under Information/Resources. His first article can be found there as well.
WELCOME MY FRIEND!
Who is Battery Mooch?
My name is John Muchow, some of you may know me as Mooch on ECF and FB and Mooch315
on ECR. I have been vaping since April, 2015 and haven’t smoked once since I
started!I was born and raised in New York City and still live there now. Since 1992 I have
been designing and building electronic devices for a large number of clients. My
first products were camera remote-control systems for sports photographers. As these
systems, and other devices, transitioned from wired to wireless the performance of
the batteries they used was very important as there was no way to replace them
during use. This led to me doing more and more battery testing and developing the
electronics to charge, test, and protect them.As battery technology advanced, from NiCd to NiMH to Li-Ion and now
ultracapacitor/Li-Ion hybrids, the devices I built and the battery testing I did
advanced along with them. I started specializing in power management electronics;
battery chargers, energy harvesters (for charging from heat, light, or
vibration/movement), power supplies, battery analyzers, electronic loads for battery
discharging, and battery management/protection systems. This is the work I still do
today.My clients have included the US Army, National Geographic, Sports Illustrated,
Eastman Kodak Company, and hundreds of other companies from large to small. Part of
the work I’ve done for a lot of my clients has been battery testing. Sometimes they
want to recommend a good battery to their customers. Other times they’re batteries I
have chosen to combine with my electronics to form a complete, protected power
source for them to incorporate into their products.Depending on my client’s requirements this testing can take up to several weeks to
complete. I use a subset of these tests when evaluating the batteries we use when
vaping. This includes continuous-current tests to establish the battery’s true (and
safe) ratings. They also help to determine if there’s any risk of venting if one of
our mods autofires or a mechanical mod’s button is accidentally pressed. The
pulse-current tests measure the degree of voltage sag we would see when vaping at
different current levels. Both types of tests are done the same way for every set of
batteries I test.This consistency in the testing allows for direct comparison of the performance of
different batteries even if the pulse discharging I do doesn’t match the way you
vape.Safety is my number one priority. While I often test at discharge current levels
that can result in unsafe battery temperatures, this is the only way to figure out
what a battery’s true and safe ratings are. No battery is totally safe but we can
certainly avoid taking unnecessary risks.My blog at ECF has the results of all my testing and a few articles on batteries,
battery safety, etc.:https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mooch.256958/
I have also listed the equipment I use and the steps I follow when testing. This
allows anyone to replicate my tests if they want to:https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/my-cell-testing-equipment-and-setup.7431/
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/whats-done-for-each-cell-test.7433/
My battery test results offer you a resource you can use when choosing a battery
that will not only be safer for the way you vape but will also give you great
performance.I’m looking forward to contributing to TasteYourJuice.com and I want to thank
PBusardo for the opportunity to help spread the word on exaggerated battery ratings
and battery safety!Mooch
Latest Battery Updates
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: LG HG2 20A 3000mAh 18650…a fantastic 20A battery!
This is a retest of the popular LG HG2, rated at 20A by the manufacturer. The four cells I tested, two from Liion Wholesale and two from Illumn, showed a bit less than expected consistency in performance but all tested as solid 20A cells.
I have seen this cell with and without the laser-written “Caution” on the wrap. I don’t know if this is an option from LG or not but both types have tested as genuine. There are LOTS of fakes of this cell though. Only buy from known, trusted vendors. Check the pinned post on my Mooch Facebook page or my blog at ECF for my list of trusted vendors.
There is also a version of the HG2 with the word “cigarette” misspelled as “cigaratte” in the Caution on the wrap. One theory is that this is an error by a China company that added the caution statement to genuine HG2’s for unknown reasons. This does NOT mean that all HG2’s with the “cigaratte” misspelling are genuine! Only that I haven’t seen any fake ones…yet.
I am rating the LG HG2 at 20A and 3000mAh.
Four cells were purchased for the purposes of testing by me.
These cells have been rated by me before at 20A and 18A. Any rating in the tables can change at any time as different grade cells appear on the market or we get swamped with fakes. Please, never assume that the ratings in the table are permanent and will never change! Always download the latest version before considering any cell purchase.
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/LTopK
Test results: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/bench-retest-results-lg-hg2-20a-3000mah-18650…a-fantastic-20a-battery.846005/
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: My first video!
Finally put up my first YouTube video…
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Prodna Yellow 35A 3500mAh 18650…a 10A LG battery, not IMR, DO NOT BUY
This cell has a hugely exaggerated 35A rating on the wrap. It can’t even be considered a pulse rating.
Any “max” or “pulse” rating is useless unless we know the length of the pulse, the time between the pulses, and the criteria used to set the rating (Voltage sag? Temperature? Run time? A combination of those?). Without knowing this, and all companies using the same pulse lengths, rest times, and criteria, we can’t use the max/pulse ratings for comparing any batteries. They are useless.
This battery says “IMR 18650” on the wrap but it does not use the battery chemistry associated with the IMR manufacturer’s model number prefix. It uses the “hybrid” chemistry sometimes identified with the INR prefix.
I placed an order on their web site for eight cells but they were never shipped and Prodna ignored several attempts over a period of weeks to contact them via two email addresses. I only received my money back after filing a claim with PayPal. All of the cells I eventually tested were donated.
This cell’s appearance and performance is close to the 10A high capacity LG cells like the MH1 and MJ1. I estimate this Prodna’s ratings to be 10A and 3100mAh. This cell’s huge overrating and misleading use of “IMR” earns it a Do Not Buy recommendation.
The cells I tested were donated by Wendy Vapes for that purpose. Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/5Ycxh
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Prodna Black 50A 3100mAh 18650…a 15A battery, not IMR, DO NOT BUY
This cell has a hugely exaggerated 50A rating on the wrap. It can’t even be considered a pulse rating.
Any “max” or “pulse” rating is useless unless we know the length of the pulse, the time between the pulses, and the criteria used to set the rating (Voltage sag? Temperature? Run time? A combination of those?). Without knowing this, and all companies using the same pulse lengths, rest times, and criteria, we can’t use the max/pulse ratings for comparing any batteries. They are useless.
This battery says “IMR 18650” on the wrap but it does not use the battery chemistry associated with the IMR manufacturer’s model number prefix. It uses the “hybrid” chemistry sometimes identified with the INR prefix.
I placed an order on their web site for eight cells but they were never shipped and Prodna ignored several attempts over a period of weeks to contact them via two email addresses. I only received my money back after filing a claim with PayPal. All of the cells I eventually tested were donated.
This cell’s appearance and performance is essentially identical to the Sony VTC6. I estimate this Prodna’s ratings to be 15A and 3000mAh. This cell’s huge overrating and misleading use of “IMR” earns it a Do Not Buy recommendation.
The cells I tested were donated for that purpose. Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/fFH7B
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Prodna Red 40A 3000mAh 18650…same as their 2500mAh, not IMR, DO NOT BUY
This cell has a hugely exaggerated 40A rating on the wrap. It can’t even be considered a pulse rating. It identical to their Purple 2500mAh cell…an LG HE2/HE4 rewrap!
Any “max” or “pulse” rating is useless unless we know the length of the pulse, the time between the pulses, and the criteria used to set the rating (Voltage sag? Temperature? Run time? A combination of those?). Without knowing this, and all companies using the same pulse lengths, rest times, and criteria, we can’t use the max/pulse ratings for comparing any batteries. They are useless.
This battery says “IMR 18650” on the wrap but it does not use the battery chemistry associated with the IMR manufacturer’s model number prefix. It uses the “hybrid” chemistry sometimes identified with the INR prefix.
The Prodna web site pages for their batteries use some sort of coiling kit contents list for the battery details and the reviews on the web site are still test reviews in the fake Latin used for placeholder text. This is confusing at best.
I placed an order on their web site for eight cells but they were never shipped and Prodna ignored several attempts over a period of weeks to contact them via two email addresses. I only received my money back after filing a claim with PayPal. All of the cells I eventually tested were donated.
This cell’s appearance and performance is essentially identical to the LG HE2 and HE4. I estimate this Prodna’s ratings to be 20A and 2500mAh. The LG HG2 is a clearly better choice as it hits harder and runs for longer than this cell.
Their use of the same cell for this “3000mAh” as they use for their 2500mAh cell and its huge overrating earns this cell a Do Not Buy recommendation.
The cells were donated for the purposes of testing. Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/MNXwW
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Prodna Purple 40A 2500mAh 18650…ridiculously overrated, not IMR
This cell has a hugely exaggerated 40A rating on the wrap. It can’t even be considered a pulse rating.
Any “max” or “pulse” rating is useless unless we know the length of the pulse, the time between the pulses, and the criteria used to set the rating (Voltage sag? Temperature? Run time? A combination of those?). Without knowing this, and all companies using the same pulse lengths, rest times, and criteria, we can’t use the max/pulse ratings for comparing any batteries. They are useless.
This battery says “IMR 18650” on the wrap but it does not use the battery chemistry associated with the IMR manufacturer’s model number prefix. It uses the “hybrid” chemistry sometimes identified with the INR prefix.
The Prodna web site pages for their batteries use some sort of coiling kit contents list for the battery details and the reviews on the web site are still test reviews in the fake Latin used for placeholder text. This is confusing at best.
I placed an order on their web site for eight cells but they were never shipped and Prodna ignored several attempts over a period of weeks to contact them via two email addresses. I only received my money back after filing a claim with PayPal. All of the cells I eventually tested were donated.
This cell’s appearance is essentially identical to the LG HE2 and HE4. Its performance is identical to the HE4 and very close to the HE2. I estimate this Prodna’s ratings to be 20A and 2500mAh.
The cells were donated for the purposes of testing. Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/9kBNg
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Golisi S30 Black 35A 3000mAh 18650…overrated but they’re rewrapping
This cell claims a 35A continuous current rating and 3000mAh capacity. These are both exaggerated but Golisi has agreed to rewrap these cells with a 25A rating before March 2018.
While I was quite disappointed to see the exaggerated ratings I am glad they say they will be rewrapping these cells with more realistic ratings. At its claimed 35A continuous rating it delivered less than 100mAh down to 3.2V. At a 0.5A discharge it only delivered 2846mAh.
This appears to be a China-manufactured cell as it doesn’t match any Samsung, Sony, LG, or Panasonic/Sanyo that I have. Golisi’s discharge graph shows a cell with much better performance than the four I tested. I had a couple of discussions with Golisi about the differences between the factory’s test results and mine but we weren’t able to resolve anything. I am unable to explain the discrepancy.
The four cells I tested showed the typical variance in capacity and internal resistance for China-manufactured cells. I don’t think these cell-to-cell differences are noticeable when vaping though.
Golisi has compared this cell’s performance to the 20A 2500mAh LG HE2 in a Facebook post. Its voltage while running and capacity are a bit worse than the HE2 down to 3.2V but the Golisi does run a few degrees-C cooler.
I estimate this Golisi’s ratings to be 22A and 2800mAh.
DC Internal Resistance = 22.2mOhms (milliohms) average for the four cells.
Total energy delivered down to 3.2V at 10A continuous = 6.44Wh (Watt-hours) average
Total energy delivered down to 3.2V at 20A continuous = 3.64Wh (Watt-hours) average
Four cells were donated for the purposes of testing by Golisi (www.golisi.com). Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/IKjDL
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Brillipower 30A 4100mAh 20700…ridiculously overrated
This cell has a hugely exaggerated current rating. Discharged continuously at its claimed 30A rating the voltage sag makes this cell almost useless. It delivered only about 350mAh down to 3.2V at 30A, getting hot enough to boil water…dangerously hot.
This cell’s appearance is identical to the Sanyo NCR20700B but its performance is a bit worse than the Sanyo. I estimate this Brillipower’s ratings to be 15A and 4000mAh.
Two cells were donated for the purposes of testing by The Cloudy Vapor (www.thecloudyvapor.com). Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/RneEJ
Test results, discharge graph, photos: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/bench-test-results-brillipower-30a-4100mah-20700…ridiculously-overrated.844559/
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. Never exceed the battery’s current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: The MVA limits in my ratings tables are not a number to use for vaping!
They are meant only to give you an idea of the risk if a battery is accidentally discharged at beyond its continuous current rating when vaping. You should not consider them as a rating for the battery that you can vape at!
If properly used the MVA limit can help increase our safety. But it has been misused by too many.
Safety is important and must guide us in the recommendations we make. I have decided to remove the MVA limit numbers from my tables and ask that everyone delete any tables they have now and download the new ones that are available. See the links below.
Please do not post or distribute any earlier version of these tables.
Please delete any earlier version of these tables you might have posted.
Please do not recommend the MVA limit as an acceptable vaping level.
I ask this with all the sincerity and urgency that I can muster…please.
Our community is under increased scrutiny and battery and vaping hardware (atomizer and device) regulations/standards are now being discussed and written…very severe ones. I am not allowed to discuss some of what I’ve learned but it could be bad. We must set a good example and self-regulate our community as best as we can. I cannot emphasize too strongly the importance of this.
I realize that many are vaping at discharge levels considerably above the continuous discharge rating (CDR) of their batteries and have done so without incident. But that doesn’t mean it’s done without risk.
Giving the community the tools and data we need to pick the best battery is very important to me though. I have a way to replace the pulse testing I do now. These new tests can be used to directly compare how hard one battery hits versus another and which is the better performer. It will simplify my testing too.
Many battery wrapping companies sell batteries with ratings that are considerably higher than the battery’s true ratings. This is an issue I will continue to devote a lot of my time to.
I realize that many of you will be upset at these changes. I’m not doing this to piss off the high power vapers. 🙂 You will still have the tools you need to pick the best performing battery. I will post about this soon.
But I can only recommend to our community that we never exceed the continuous current rating (CDR) of any battery. These batteries were never meant to be used outside of a battery pack with suitable protection electronics.
Each of us can decide the level of risk we wish to take ourselves but we should recommend safe battery use to others.
Thank you for your time.
Sorry for the long read and the inconvenience of having to replace your tables!
18350/18500 table:
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/blog-entry/18350-18500-safety-grades-and-pulse-performance-data.7566/
18650 table:
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/blog-entry/18650-battery-ratings-picking-a-safe-battery-to-vape-with.7447/
20650/20700/21700 table:
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/blog-entry/20650-20700-21700-battery-safety-ratings-table.7827/
26650 table:
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/blog-entry/26650-safety-grades-and-pulse-performance-data.7554/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Samsung 40T 21700…a great 30A 3900mAh battery, better than NCR20700A
These tests were done only as a preview of a cell that should be available by the middle of 2018. It is just a guide so vapers and mod manufacturers know what’s coming and can make more informed purchasing or manufacturing decisions.
This is a fantastic performing true 30A cell that easily beats the Sanyo NCR20700A at both high and low discharge current levels. At moderate power levels this Samsung 40T even beats the incredible Samsung 30T, hitting harder for almost the entire discharge down to 3.2V and for a lot longer too.
At high power levels though the lower internal resistance of the Samsung 30T allows it to hit harder than the Samsung 40T for most of the discharge down to 3.2V (about 3.6V resting voltage). The 40T still runs for longer though.
This is a classic tradeoff, the 30T’s higher performance and current rating versus the 40T’s higher capacity. The 40T still performs better than the Sanyo NCR20700A and would be an amazing cell for high power regulated vaping. Even for mech’s if the 30T wasn’t available.
This cell delivered 3962mAh and 3985mAh in my capacity tests. Judging by Samsung’s “40T” designation for it I am sure its nominal/typical capacity rating will be 4000mAh. However, its guaranteed/minimum rating is always lower than the typical/nominal rating and will probably be 3800mAh or 3900mAh.
I am rating this Samsung at an estimated 25A-30A and 3900mAh.
Two cells were donated for the purposes of testing by Enercig (www.enercig.com). Thank you!
Cell photos: https://imgur.com/a/YSq2m
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/rQrkB
Test results, discharge graph, photos: http://bit.ly/2BULNMe
All my test results to date: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
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