I would like to personally welcome Battery Mooch to TasteYourJuice.com.
“Mooch” is well known in the industry as the “battery guy” and is quite popular on the ECF. I’ve worked with Mooch several times in the background and he’s always been quite helpful and knowledgeable in answering my questions.
Although I have some experience with battery testing, Mooch has all the experience I lack so I though it a good fit to offer him his own page here on TasteYourJuice.com.
If you look to the left, you’ll see the new Battery Mooch page under Information/Resources. His first article can be found there as well.
WELCOME MY FRIEND!
Who is Battery Mooch?
My name is John Muchow, some of you may know me as Mooch on ECF and FB and Mooch315
on ECR. I have been vaping since April, 2015 and haven’t smoked once since I
started!I was born and raised in New York City and still live there now. Since 1992 I have
been designing and building electronic devices for a large number of clients. My
first products were camera remote-control systems for sports photographers. As these
systems, and other devices, transitioned from wired to wireless the performance of
the batteries they used was very important as there was no way to replace them
during use. This led to me doing more and more battery testing and developing the
electronics to charge, test, and protect them.As battery technology advanced, from NiCd to NiMH to Li-Ion and now
ultracapacitor/Li-Ion hybrids, the devices I built and the battery testing I did
advanced along with them. I started specializing in power management electronics;
battery chargers, energy harvesters (for charging from heat, light, or
vibration/movement), power supplies, battery analyzers, electronic loads for battery
discharging, and battery management/protection systems. This is the work I still do
today.My clients have included the US Army, National Geographic, Sports Illustrated,
Eastman Kodak Company, and hundreds of other companies from large to small. Part of
the work I’ve done for a lot of my clients has been battery testing. Sometimes they
want to recommend a good battery to their customers. Other times they’re batteries I
have chosen to combine with my electronics to form a complete, protected power
source for them to incorporate into their products.Depending on my client’s requirements this testing can take up to several weeks to
complete. I use a subset of these tests when evaluating the batteries we use when
vaping. This includes continuous-current tests to establish the battery’s true (and
safe) ratings. They also help to determine if there’s any risk of venting if one of
our mods autofires or a mechanical mod’s button is accidentally pressed. The
pulse-current tests measure the degree of voltage sag we would see when vaping at
different current levels. Both types of tests are done the same way for every set of
batteries I test.This consistency in the testing allows for direct comparison of the performance of
different batteries even if the pulse discharging I do doesn’t match the way you
vape.Safety is my number one priority. While I often test at discharge current levels
that can result in unsafe battery temperatures, this is the only way to figure out
what a battery’s true and safe ratings are. No battery is totally safe but we can
certainly avoid taking unnecessary risks.My blog at ECF has the results of all my testing and a few articles on batteries,
battery safety, etc.:https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mooch.256958/
I have also listed the equipment I use and the steps I follow when testing. This
allows anyone to replicate my tests if they want to:https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/my-cell-testing-equipment-and-setup.7431/
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/whats-done-for-each-cell-test.7433/
My battery test results offer you a resource you can use when choosing a battery
that will not only be safer for the way you vape but will also give you great
performance.I’m looking forward to contributing to TasteYourJuice.com and I want to thank
PBusardo for the opportunity to help spread the word on exaggerated battery ratings
and battery safety!Mooch
Latest Battery Updates
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: “Favorite Battery Company” Poll Results
The results of the 24-hour poll I put up earlier this week are in. I asked you to vote for your favorite battery company, manufacturer or rewrapper. Over 1,100 of you responded and Sony was, by far, your favorite. Thank you!
Though I asked just for a single company name a decent number of votes were for multiple companies, multiple batteries, had separate categories, etc. Many of these had to be skipped but the shorter responses had just the first company mentioned used as your vote.
I have some reservations about the results though. I think I did not word the title of the poll well.
In my mind I was asking who made or wrapped the batteries you like/use the most. But I think a lot of votes were for the company that you felt should be the favorite or the company you would like to use the batteries from. Not the company that actually makes or wraps the batteries you use most often. A few votes on Instagram were for a company that hasn’t even released its batteries yet.
I get a very large number of messages about using rewrapped batteries but there were very few votes for any of those companies. This is what is making me think that many either felt they shouldn’t vote for a rewrapping company or didn’t want to deal with the possible abuse from other vapers after they posted they use rewraps.
Here are the results though: https://imgur.com/a/XtCAQ
So, what do you think?
Are Sony batteries really that commonly used?
The next poll will be asking what specific battery you use most often.
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Sherlock Hohm 28.4A 2782mAh 20700…a 25A battery, performs between iJoy 4-leg and 5-leg top contact 20700’s
This is a cell that runs at close to 90°C at its 28.4A continuous rating. This is too hot in my opinion for decent cycle life as most cells, including all of the others from Hohm Tech, say not to exceed 75°C-80°C. When the datasheet becomes available I will be able to check its max temperature rating.
The Sherlock Hohm cell performs worse than the 5-leg top contact 20700’s but better than the 4-leg iJoy 20700.
The two cells I tested delivered 2760mAh and 2761mAh at 0.5A down to 2.5V. Considering the differences in the equipment used by Hohm Tech and I these cells can be considered to have met their 2782mAh capacity rating.
The Terms & Conditions section of Hohm Tech’s web site says that their cells are not meant for use outside of a protected battery pack or in a device without equivalent protection. This means no unprotected mod or mechanical mod use of their cells is supported by Hohm Tech. For vendors this might affect the warranty in certain situations. Contact Hohm Tech for more information about this.
I was very disappointed to see “47.8A” featured in a large font on the cell, with nothing to indicate what it meant. This is the pulse rating, which Hohm Tech defined for me in emails, but Hohm Tech says that vapers should not use this pulse rating for anything. They said we should only use the continuous discharge rating…and I agree.
The continuous discharge rating is also on the cell, and is marked as “CDR”, but uses a smaller font. Hohm Tech said that in December 2017 they decided to switch the sizes and positions of the two ratings on the wrap. I don’t know if these new wraps are being used yet.
I am estimating the ratings for this Sherlock Hohm cell to be 25A and 2782mAh. The 25A rating helps to keep its temperature down closer to the 80°C limit for other cells.
Two cells were donated for the purposes of testing by Hohm Tech (http://www.hohmtech.com). Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/KeQUs
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
Any rating in the tables can change at any time as different grade cells appear on the market or we get swamped with fakes. Please, never assume that the ratings in the table are permanent and will never change! Always download the latest version before considering any cell purchase.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: My first Mooch News video is up
My first weekly Mooch News video has been uploaded to my Battery Mooch YouTube channel. Just a quick look at recent and upcoming testing and a bit of commentary.
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Episode 2 of Battery Basics for Vapers has been uploaded to my Battery Mooch YouTube channel
This episode covers how capacity, current ratings, and voltages add up for different battery setups in regulated and unregulated mods.
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Results of my Smok X8 and V8 teardown
Due to a couple of incidents of the popular Smok Stick V8 and X8 mods catching fire while charging I decided to check if there was anything I could see in a teardown that might indicate a possible cause.
Smok Stick X8 page: https://www.smoktech.com/kit/stick-x8
Smok Stick V8 page: https://www.smoktech.com/kit/stick-v8
Teardown photos: https://imgur.com/a/i1doD
A total of eleven units were cycled five times each and then disassembled and checked. The X8’s and V8’s I had were identical internally.
Bottom line…my testing and the disassembly/inspection was inconclusive. I didn’t see any obvious issues in any of the units I checked and all of them worked properly.
This does NOT mean that every Smok X8 and V8 is unconditionally “safe”!
This also does NOT mean “user error” caused the fires!
We can’t come to any conclusions from my teardown other than I had no issues with the ones I looked at.
I also received one of the units that caught fire during charging, along with the charger that was used. The device was completely charred internally. There was nothing left to inspect other than ashes. The Samsung 5V/1A USB charger block that was being used was still functioning normally, outputting a bit over 5.0V. No conclusions could be made regarding the cause of this device’s failure.
I’d like to thank Eva Campbell for donating three new X8’s, Lynda Abshear for donating two new V8’s and one of the burned V8’s, and All Day Vapes for donating three new X8’s and three new V8’s. Thank you!
Here is what I did for each unit:
– Cycled it three times using a Apple iPad USB charger (5.2V/2.4A) and then 0.13 ohm and 0.4 ohm coils for discharging until the unit would no longer fire. All of the units charged without incident and without getting more than warm externally (near the circuit board).
– The USB cable that shipped with one of the units was used for each charge and handled quite roughly every time it was inserted. I made sure to insert it “upside-down” first every time to try to replicate some of wear & tear it might see during use.
– Cycled it twice using the same coils as before but with a power supply to set the charging voltage to 4.5V to simulate a low quality, i.e., low voltage, USB charging block. All of the units charged without incident and without getting more than warm (near the circuit board).
– Disassembled and inspected it for missing padding or insulators, battery damage during assembly, inconsistent or low quality circuit board soldering, sloppy wiring runs, signs of overheating, missing mounting hardware, inconsistent soldering, etc.
My observations:
– Unit to unit assembly consistency was good except that two of the units had the circuit board soldered to the screw posts instead of using screws.
– Green vegetable grocery bag tape was used to hold the black negative wire from the battery to the circuit board. I guess it was an inexpensive option?
– The black negative wire going up the side of the battery was a very small gauge wire and got hot when about 23A was flowing through it with a freshly charged battery and a 0.13 ohm coil. No damage to the wire’s insulation or side of the battery was seen in any unit though.
– Charging current was 0.65A-0.70A for all the units.
– There was foam padding on the bottom and soft rubber padding on the top of the battery. These would help protect the battery from damage if the mod was dropped but I do not know how these would hold up after lots of drops over time.
– The end/side “flaps” of the pouch cell were very tightly folded against the cell so it all fit in the tube but no damage was seen in any of the cells when I removed the padding and the insulators and unfolded the flaps.
Conclusion:
Since we don’t know what the cause of the failures were I strongly recommend that charging ANY mod should always be done on a non-flammable surface with someone nearby the entire time in case something goes wrong.
Since these kits are sold to newer vapers I’d like to see a decent USB charging block included. It would add minimal cost and prevent the use of low quality chargers.
One of the two 1A USB charging blocks I received with the burnt out unit, but was not being used when the unit caught fire, outputted only 3.90V and less than 0.5A when used. That is about 3.7V to the battery once it passes through the USB cable and the circuit board. This results in a battery that is not fully charged and it could possibly cause problems with the unit’s electronics as this is much lower than the 4.40V minimum voltage for USB these units might be expecting.
I don’t know if low charging voltages, and low quality USB chargers, are a problem or not but including a charger with the unit would make them more “all-in-one” kits and help limit the use of crappy chargers.
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Battery Basics for Vapers Ep1 is now available on my Battery Mooch YouTube channel
This is the first in a series of videos for newer vapers and those transitioning from regulated to unregulated and vice versa. Or, just anyone who wants to learn more about batteries.
Episode 1 covers thirty-four battery related words and phrases.
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: EHPRO/Bootes Bronze-Black 3500mAh 30A 18650…just a 10A 3300mAh battery, DO NOT BUY
EHPRO/Bootes (not the EHPRO e-cig company) markets this cell to vapers but their web site clearly states it’s not meant for use with e-cigarettes and that it is a serious misuse of the cell. We’ve seen retail vendors do this, it’s just a standard liability statement, but when the battery wrapping company does this with their own cells then is it done at our expense?
What should we do when a company is willing to sell us something, pocket the profits, and then say not to use what we bought? If you didn’t buy direct from their web site you’d never know they say not to use with e-cigs. Just something to consider. This is different than what Sony and LG do as they do not market to vapers and they actively try to keep us from using their cells.
Since EHPRO/Bootes does not want anyone to use this cell with any vaping device I am giving it a Do Not Buy recommendation.
There is no rating on this cell other than “30A MAX”. But if you go to the EHPRO/Bootes web site it says it has a 20A continuous rating. This cell doesn’t even have the tiny “max continuous discharge” and “max pulse discharge” ratings on the wrap that some of the other EHPRO/Bootes cells have.
No customer should have to go on a quest to hunt down the continuous rating of a cell they are using. Any “max”, “pulse”, or “max pulse” rating is useless as we don’t know the pulse length, time between pulses, and the criteria they used to set the rating (temperature? voltage sag? cycle life? A combination of those or other things?). We’re not able to compare this cell’s pulse rating to any other’s.
Unfortunately, the 30A “max” rating is preposterous and the capacity is exaggerated too. At 30A the voltage instantly dropped to about 3.10V. This cell appears and performs identically to the 10A 3300mAh Sanyo NCR18650GA.
I am rating this EHPRO/Bootes cell at 10A and 3300mAh for any non-vaping use.
Two cells were donated for the purposes of testing by EHPRO/Bootes (http://www.ehpropower.com). Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/NAeBG
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
Any rating in the tables can change at any time as different grade cells appear on the market or we get swamped with fakes. Please, never assume that the ratings in the table are permanent and will never change! Always download the latest version before considering any cell purchase.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: There are two EHPRO companies!
One of them wraps the batteries I have been testing, “Shenzhen EHPRO Battery Technology Company, Ltd” or “Shenzhen EHPRO Technology Company, Ltd” or “Bootes Battery Technology Company Ltd.” depending on where you look (www.ehpropower.com)
The other, “Shenzhen Ehpro Technology Company, Ltd.”, makes mods and atomizers like the Billow, Big Buddha, and Bachelor (www.szehpro.com).
Web site comparison: https://imgur.com/a/XBLnz
Both of them say that they are not the same company. The mod/atty Ehpro company appears to have registered the “Ehpro” trademark for those types of devices and the battery Ehpro company appears to have registered “Ehpro” for batteries some time later.
The mod/atty Ehpro company claims they have been trying for a while to stop the battery Ehpro company from using “Ehpro”. The battery Ehpro company says they registered the trademark legally.
I’m not getting any further into this as it seems to boil down to China’s trademark laws, timing, and who knows what else. I’m only relaying what they’ve told me. I do not know what else might be going on behind the scenes here….if anything. Do not assume that there is anything.
The batteries I am testing are from the battery Ehpro/Bootes company at www.ehpropower.com. I will emphasize that more when I post the last two test reports.
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: EHPRO/Bootes Yellow-Black 3000mAh 60A 18650…only 20A-25A battery, EHPRO/Bootes says do not use with e-cigs!
EHPRO/Bootes (not the EHPRO e-cig company) markets this cell to vapers but their web site clearly states it’s not meant for use with e-cigarettes and that it is a serious misuse of the cell. We’ve seen retail vendors do this, it’s just a standard liability statement, but when the battery wrapping company does this with their own cells then is it done at our expense?
What should we do when a company is willing to sell us something, pocket the profits, and then say not to use what we bought? If you didn’t buy direct from their web site you’d never know they say not to use with e-cigs. Just something to consider. This is different than what Sony and LG do as they do not market to vapers and they actively try to keep us from using their cells.
Since EHPRO/Bootes does not want anyone to use this cell with any vaping device I am giving it a Do Not Buy recommendation.
On the wrap, in the tiniest lettering I’ve ever seen on a cell, it says it’s rated 35A continuous and 60A “max pulse discharge”.
Unfortunately, the 35A continuous rating is greatly exaggerated. This EHPRO/Bootes cell appears and performs identically to the 20A-25A Sony VTC6A.
I haven’t seen the datasheet for the VTC6A to know Sony’s ratings but EHPRO/Bootes’ claim of 35A is ridiculous. At that high a discharge current level this cell becomes hot enough to boil water. The VTC6A might have a temperature-limited rating that high but you must stop the discharge before the cell reaches 80°C. This means it cannot be a continuous current rating.
The 60A EHPRO/Bootes’ “pulse” rating is useless.
Any “max”, “pulse”, or “max pulse” rating is useless as we don’t know the pulse length, time between pulses, and the criteria they used to set the rating (temperature? voltage sag? cycle life? A combination of those or other things?). We’re not able to compare this cell’s pulse rating to any other’s.
I am rating this EHPRO/Bootes cell at 20A-25A and 3000mAh for any non-vaping use.
Two cells were donated for the purposes of testing by EHPRO/Bootes (http://www.ehpropower.com). Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/nOt0z
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
Any rating in the tables can change at any time as different grade cells appear on the market or we get swamped with fakes. Please, never assume that the ratings in the table are permanent and will never change! Always download the latest version before considering any cell purchase.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
A BATTERY MOOCH POST: Vapcell Gold 30A 3100mAh 20700…a great 30A battery, beats VTC5A and 5-leg top contact 20700’s
This cell was a joy to test. It performed well, both its continuous current and capacity ratings are accurate, and only the continuous current rating is on the wrap of the cell.
This Vapcell outperforms both the Sony VTC5A and the 5-leg top contact 20700’s, hitting harder and running for longer. This cell roughly matches the Sanyo NCR20700A at 10A but the Sanyo is still the better performer at high current levels.
Both cells I tested delivered more than 3100mAh when discharged at 0.5A down to 2.5V. I am estimating this Vapcell’s ratings at 30A and 3100mAh.
Two cells were donated for the purposes of testing by Vapcell (http://www.vapcelltech.com). Thank you!
Ratings graphic: https://imgur.com/a/s5wC2
These tests only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” batteries or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.
Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.
Any rating in the tables can change at any time as different grade cells appear on the market or we get swamped with fakes. Please, never assume that the ratings in the table are permanent and will never change! Always download the latest version before considering any cell purchase.
To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
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